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Post by pacejunkie on Dec 8, 2008 22:44:53 GMT -5
Would Sam ever tell Sock and Ben what dealing with the Devil is really like? I don't think so because I'm sure he's want to protect them from evil. I'd love to see an episode where Sam and Sock switch places sort of Reaper meets Freaky Friday. OMGWHATANAWESOMEBUNNY! May I? |
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Post by cko on Dec 9, 2008 0:08:34 GMT -5
Go for it, pace, it's perfect for you. Personally, I'm seriously considering this one, so thanks, Tera!: Any further thoughts I'll move to the Here's Your Inspiration thread. |
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teras
Fallen Angel
Posts: 18
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Post by teras on Dec 9, 2008 16:11:46 GMT -5
<smiles>
Welcome!
I look forward to reading it someday soon!
Good luck!
Tera
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Post by Blue Sunflower on Dec 9, 2008 16:31:54 GMT -5
Well.. Marlena I have a problem with because a Succubus is first and foremost a being of sexuality and temptation. All else is secondary to that point in my view... Reforming does not mean that she can't still dress in something like a tight fitting sweater and painted on jeans... I think it does. Remember, Marlena was part of the second rebellion. It's quite possible she was doing the same thing as child-eating-demon guy in the first rebellion and trying to mute her inner - and outer - demonness. That was a self-help group to help demons be less demon-like. I can't think of many succubi who actually *warn* their prey about the dangers of keeping a relationship with them.  Anyways, as much as it goes, if Marlena was trying to avoid temptation (that is, the temptation to act as a normal succubus), then I can see that she would easily 'dress down.' Otherwise, she's sure to gain attention (remember, she went to Sock first, not the other way around - Sock'd be sure to notice a tight sweater and painted on jeans), and why do that if you're trying to avoid it? It's kinda like when you're on a diet surrounding yourself with healthy veggies as opposed to boxes of chocolates. |
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teras
Fallen Angel
Posts: 18
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Post by teras on Dec 9, 2008 22:26:54 GMT -5
Problem with that idea is that for a Succubus, anyone is, for lack of a better term, lunch...
But let's say that she came to the decision that the best thing to do was to turn away from what she was... I don't think she could completely turn away from feeding on the sexual energy of others. Mostly because she needs that to survive...
She couldn't go totally cold turkey on that... Mind you, nibbling on the energy of people around her just a bit to keep her alive is a possibility...
Getting to your point about warning people about the dangers, I think that is the one thing about her that I find somewhat angelic...
She doesn't want to take from Sock, she warns him about it, but then instead of trying to work around the problem in some way, Sock pulls out (can't remember his name at the moment... sorry) and he's all... Have him and then we can have some fun!
I wonder if Marlena will snap on him in the next season over that...
Anyway... Back to Marlena's attempts to stay clean as it were...
Oddly I have an image of her in my mind having a second life from the others... In order to stay alive, she's a stripper somewhere and feeding off the energy in the strip club that's floating around her...
Have to ponder that some for a story myself mebby...
Tera
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Post by Blue Sunflower on Dec 9, 2008 22:34:57 GMT -5
Problem with that idea is that for a Succubus, anyone is, for lack of a better term, lunch... But if she dresses provocatively, she's drawing her lunch to herself, whether she wants to eat it or not. By not dressing provocatively, she's got less flies willingly getting caught in her web. If she's trying to mute herself and her tendencies, I'd think she'd go out as low-key as possible so that she wouldn't end up with a smorgasboard of potential temptations. |
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teras
Fallen Angel
Posts: 18
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Post by teras on Dec 11, 2008 19:55:31 GMT -5
A paper bag over a model is still a paper bag over a model...
But seriously, if she was trying to keep temptation away from herself... Sock isn't going to make that easy since she A-Likes him and B-He offers and offers and then tempts her more...
Wouldn't someone rational come to the understanding that, it was nice and amazing, but, if I am going to lose a year for 10 seconds of fun, I might not want to...
Sock seems to have the idea that if he provides someone else for her to feed on, he would be fine... I think that isn't really possible because if she is taking from others and, maybe, gets a little drunk on it...
She might not remember who he is or more importantly, that she shouldn't feed on him...
The other part of this that comes to mind now is, what if she can't turn it off? What if regardless of anything else, she does have that effect all the time?
Complications do abound...
Tera
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Post by cko on Dec 12, 2008 22:05:02 GMT -5
Ohh, if you do, tera, you'll have to let us know. And I'm thinking about this, now:
I'm sure this is the case. Witness her attraction (IMO anyway) even when she was totally dressed down.
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teras
Fallen Angel
Posts: 18
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Post by teras on Dec 17, 2008 21:52:46 GMT -5
Perhaps it's got two edges to it... She can't turn it off and the more she resists it, the more she needs the next time she feeds?
Sort of would make sense like a junkie or something like that....
Tera
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Post by pending on Dec 19, 2008 13:35:55 GMT -5
I think they've set this aside, I mean, the idea that the demons can starve for resisting their natures. I'm thinking mainly of 'Bob the child eater' from that support group meeting.
It may come down to if the show is working from a Catholic perspective or a Protestant one. (Whee! I turn all mythology into the same debate!) I know K. Smith goes very Catholic with his religious writing, humorous or not, but if the show's producers are taking a more Protestant view they're the ones doing the writing. If the show's underlying philosophy is Catholic, from the fathers of the church that brought us Original Sin, I would say teras got it, and Marlena is ultimately going to be unable to control her nature whether she wants to or not, because it's her nature.
Personally though, I strongly believe the show's bend is Protestant, where anyone can be forgiven if they just try hard enough. We've already had the redemption of a fallen angel, which is pretty outrageous theologically speaking, whether or not we all love Steve.
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teras
Fallen Angel
Posts: 18
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Post by teras on Dec 19, 2008 22:15:59 GMT -5
Well, in my view everyone has a choice to make. Personally I would love to see Marlena overcome what she is and transform into something better than she is...
That would be something I would love to see as it fits into my own personal beliefs and views on Succubi...
That does bring up an interesting question... If all of the creatures looking for redemption find it, would that bring the Devil, at least in this universe, something to fear?
Tera
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Post by Blue Sunflower on Mar 25, 2009 0:33:05 GMT -5
Nina talking about the Nephilim in tonight's episode has raised all sorts of questions. I'm guessing the writers put it in so that we could have a clue about Sam's history, but honestly, it makes no sense. Or at least - it doesn't jive with Sam. In a nutshell, Nephilim were the children of Angels and human women. Because the Angels sinned by procreating with humans, God became angry and threw them out - hence Nephilim are technically the children of Fallen Angels. This does jive with Nina saying how God smote all the humans the Angels had sex with. Nephilim are described as "giants". There doesn't seem to be all that much special about them, excluding the fact that their mere existence seemed to be the cause of the Fall of many Angels (including Azarael), and possibly the impetus for the Great Flood. I can't really find anything as to whether they are "bad" or "good", but it definitely seems like they're not like Guardian Angels, angel-like, beloved, or anything of the sort. Some of the sites I read suggested that Nephilim are (at least nowadays) specifically created by the Fallen Angels in order to de-purify the human race - kinda punish them for (in God's eyes) being better than them. One site mentioned a theory that since the Messiah is supposed to be "pure" (100%) human, the demons intermingle with the humans specifically so that there are no lines of "pure" humans left in order for the Messiah to be born from. Honestly, IMO, it sounds to me more like Morgan's the one who's the nephilim, not Sam. Perhaps others with more knowledge can shed some light on for me, or at least figure out how Sam might fit into all of this, because right now it's looking to me like the writers either A) screwed up the definition of Nephilim; B) screwed up Sam; or C) put something in for absolutely no reason other than to drive me nuts. Some links: www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vida_alien/alien_watchers.htmldolphin.org/nephilim.htmlbibleprobe.com/nephilim.htmwww.rationalchristianity.net/nephilim.htmlwww.mystae.com/restricted/streams/scripts/nephilim.htmlwww.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Rephaim.htmlwww.multiorgasmic.com/genocide.htmwww.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/articleview.asp?Post=186en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rephaimwww.mystae.com/restricted/streams/scripts/watchers.htmlwww.returnofthenephilim.com/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim |
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Post by pacejunkie on Mar 25, 2009 6:33:22 GMT -5
But if this was all before the Fall, isn't it ancient history? Demons were once Angels long ago but I can't see how any of that would apply to Sam born today. I think it was just to show you that humans and demons/angels can have relationships and procreate. We already knew something like that had happened with Sam so what have we learned really?
Unless this scenario: Mr. Oliver is an Angel who falls in love with Mrs. Oliver a human. Somehow, the Devil learns of this relationship before God does. Knowing that since the Fall, God has looked down upon these relationships, the Olivers are forced to strike a deal with the Devil for the protection of their family -- give their child over to him and he won't rat them out. They concoct a contract and fake story about "selling" Sam's soul to the Devil and there you have it. The big secret is that the Devil is protecting them (and getting Sam from the bargain, a half angel child that he can corrupt). You could look at it and say the Devil is doing a good thing here, protecting the Oliver family from God's wrath.
Okay I really like this. Works, doesn't it?
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Post by Blue Sunflower on Mar 25, 2009 19:11:26 GMT -5
But if this was all before the Fall, isn't it ancient history? No. Some of the sites saying it's continuing to this day. Fallen Angels are Fallen Angels, even if nowadays their looks are a perverted form of what they once looked like in Heaven. One site I linked even thought that currently we are recreating the Antedelluvium Days, which leads them to think we're close to the End of Days. Three reasons why I don't like this: 1. This still makes the Olivers the Most Selfish People In The Universe, and I just don't get that impression. I want Sam's soul to have been "sold" to protect Sam and not his parents. 2. Tony said God must have some Greater Plan for Sam. That sounds to me like He approves of Sam's existence. 3. God is omnipotent. You can't hide anything from Him. Although, this doesn't really explain why people haven't pointed out this inconsistency with the original Nephilim story itself. |
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Post by pacejunkie on Mar 25, 2009 20:08:09 GMT -5
Not really, they could have believed they were protecting their whole family, believing Sam was in danger too. And they're not being selfish if they're trying to prevent Sam becoming an orphan.
Tony was just guessing based on the sign from Steve. And there may indeed be some larger plan for Sam that trumps any trouble his family have caused. Doesn't negate the theory, the Devil would be unaware of this when he made the bargain with the Olivers. Or maybe just the Olivers don't know, and are being duped by the Devil who is trying to thwart God's plan for Sam.
Right, I said you have to assume that somehow God doesn't know. It's also possible he does know, like I said above, and that he has a larger plan.
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Post by bec on Mar 25, 2009 20:13:13 GMT -5
I agree with pace. But anyway, I guess another way Sam's parents could have made a deal for unselfish reasons if God wants Sam for something that's going to be really unpleasant for Sam, so they'd rather give Sam to the Devil. Better the Devil you know and all.  But the Olivers do kind of strike me as people who could have made a deal for their own gain in their younger days but are really sorry about it now. I mean, selling your kid's soul in theory (whether or not what they said about the deal or trying to pull one over on the Devil by not having kids is true), when said kid is just kind of a vague, undefined blob, is a lot different from when the kid grows up to be a person you know and love. |
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Post by Blue Sunflower on Mar 25, 2009 21:12:01 GMT -5
Not really, they could have believed they were protecting their whole family, believing Sam was in danger too. And they're not being selfish if their trying to prevent Sam becoming an orphan. Yeah it does, because "what kind of a father does this to his son?" If it's a purely selfish Mom and Pop reason, they could easily solve their current regret by giving up their lives in order to get Sam out of his contract. No matter what, them signing Sam over - and allowing the situation to stay that way - is pure selfishness on their part. And I don't like that. I'd rather it be for a reason that protects Sam, and not themselves. I'm pretty sure Steve's appearance in general confirms there's Bigger Plan for Sam, whether Tony was guessing or not. And in addition, Steve's "I know something you don't know" grins just sealed the case for me. |
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kathyk
Demon
Bounty Hunter Extraordinaire
Posts: 165
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Post by kathyk on Mar 25, 2009 21:44:12 GMT -5
I agree with Blue. If the Devil really cured Mr. Oliver of an illness why wasn't he the one to give up his soul? The Olivers supposedly tried to avoid the contract by not having kids but the Devil foiled that plan. I agree that there is something special about Sam. He manages to do good things while under the Devil's thumb.
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Post by Blue Sunflower on Mar 25, 2009 22:36:19 GMT -5
I agree with Blue. If the Devil really cured Mr. Oliver of an illness why wasn't he the one to give up his soul? The Olivers supposedly tried to avoid the contract by not having kids but the Devil foiled that plan. Yeah, I mean technically the contract is between the Devil and the Olivers - meaning either of them can break the contract if they so chose. The Olivers can give back whatever they've gotten from the Devil if they want Sam to be free. Word. The Devil is such a massive liar. |
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Post by trixiestixs on Apr 16, 2009 21:36:12 GMT -5
I'm sure the devil made that impossable...being that the Olivers gave up there first Born's life for Mr. Oliver... that is why dear old dad is a [glow=red,2,300]zombie[/glow]. If he dies Sam's contract becomes voided!
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kathyk
Demon
Bounty Hunter Extraordinaire
Posts: 165
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Post by kathyk on Apr 16, 2009 22:19:05 GMT -5
Mr Oliver could very easily void the contract by agreeing to trade places with Sam. What kind of life does he have now? He lives in a freezer and he's separated from his wife. I think there is another reason Sam's soul was sold to the devil. I really think Mr. Oliver is the Devil's son. My theory is he married Mrs. oliver against the Devil wishes so when Sam was born he went after Sam in revenge. That is why the Devil refuses to speak with him and why Mr Oliver burned the pages of the contract.
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Post by Blue Sunflower on Apr 16, 2009 22:39:15 GMT -5
I'm sure the devil made that impossable...being that the Olivers gave up there first Born's life for Mr. Oliver... that is why dear old dad is a [glow=red,2,300]zombie[/glow]. If he dies Sam's contract becomes voided! Except everyone is stating Sam is the Devil's son. Therefore, he's not the Oliver's firstborn, and the contract is voided anyways - and has been since Sam was born. The contract is a massive plothole at this moment. |
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kathyk
Demon
Bounty Hunter Extraordinaire
Posts: 165
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Post by kathyk on Apr 16, 2009 23:26:32 GMT -5
Blue Sam has to be Mr Oliver's son. In I want My Baby Back the Devil said to Sam that he shouldn't feel sorry for Mr Oliver because he's the one who got you into this situation. I don't believe that Sam is the Devil's son because when Sam asked him directly he refused to answer him. The Devil stated that Sam is forced to work to work for him while Morgan isn't. If they are both his sons why is Sam being treating so differently? I think the demons are trying to mess with Sam's head by claiming he's the Devil's son.
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Post by Blue Sunflower on Apr 17, 2009 0:02:25 GMT -5
Blue Sam has to be Mr Oliver's son. In I want My Baby Back the Devil said to Sam that he shouldn't feel sorry for Mr Oliver because he's the one who got you into this situation. That's called a plothole. Mr. O has no idea if Sam is his son or not, and was more than willing to accept that the Devil is Sam's real father. If there's even a question that Sam is not Mr. O's son, then they should be bringing up the fact that the contract is invalid. As it stands on the show, it's accepted that Sam is the Devil's son. Because of this, the contract is invalid. Yes NO ONE is bringing this up, not even Mr. O - who should frigging KNOW who the father of his son is. Eh, perhaps I never should have entered this conversation. Suffice it to say, the contract is INVALID. Again, plothole. I completely disagree. The demons aren't that layered. There's been no evidence from Nina, Tony, Gladys, "He is evil like no other" guy, or any other demon that they think Sam is anything OTHER than the Devil's son or that they are trying to mess with him. The Solomon's cage was meant to trap Sam, not give him a wedgie. Besides, there's absolutely no point to the demons thinking Sam's something else. For what reason would they want Sam to think he's Demon Spawn, if the demons know he's not? Answer: There is none. |
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Post by bec on Apr 17, 2009 4:42:07 GMT -5
They can fix the plot hole a couple of ways... like maybe it's not really a contract for Mr. Oliver's firstborn. It's a contract for MRS. Oliver's firstborn. Otherwise Mr. Oliver could have made the deal without involving Mrs. Oliver.
That or Sam is actually Mr. Oliver's bio son after all. The Devil misled Sam for his own nefarious reasons, as usual.
Sam should really take a page out of the Veronica Mars playbook and nab some of Mr. Oliver's hair to do a DNA test. Of course, The Devil can still manipulate the results if he's, for some reason, particularly invested in keeping Sam confused about who his bio father is. And if the results are inclusive or something, Sam can't very well nab The Devil's hair. Who knows if that would work as if he's a normal human, anyway. He'd probably have some weird-ass DNA that resembles a goat's DNA or something.
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Post by cko on Apr 17, 2009 21:21:05 GMT -5
Ah the old DNA test. That plotline makes for wacky hijinks, a la, regrettably, Brothers & Sisters. Regarding the parenthood and contract issue, I have no idea.
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Post by novium on Apr 18, 2009 16:32:05 GMT -5
As to the whole contract debate, I'm not sure I see a plothole. I'd assumed that the terms of the contract were not the ones Sam thought they were. They hinted at this pretty early with Mr. Oliver tearing out pages, and later, with the reveal that (possibly among other things) the contract hid the identity of Sam's father. I assumed that what tony said was the case: they didn't make a deal to sell his soul, they made a deal to bear the spawn of satan. It may come down to if the show is working from a Catholic perspective or a Protestant one. (Whee! I turn all mythology into the same debate!) If the show's underlying philosophy is Catholic, from the fathers of the church that brought us Original Sin... Personally though, I strongly believe the show's bend is Protestant, where anyone can be forgiven if they just try hard enough. We've already had the redemption of a fallen angel, which is pretty outrageous theologically speaking, whether or not we all love Steve. I think they have been taking a vaguely catholic approach to these things, but that's not my point. I'd have seen the redemption/forgiveness as part of the catholic thing, which is my point. I think the catholic/protestant divide isn't a particularly useful way of looking at it, as mainstream, (and liberal-ish) catholicism has these kind of things in common with mainstream (and liberal-ish) protestant denominations. So that's my interpretation. We're looking at vague, mainstream Christianity in general as the source material. |
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Post by Blue Sunflower on Apr 18, 2009 16:42:54 GMT -5
I assumed that what tony said was the case: they didn't make a deal to sell his soul, they made a deal to bear the spawn of satan. Can't be. Mr. Oliver was completely floored that the Devil might be Sam's father, and it's *his* contract. So the contract pages he ripped out have to say something else. |
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Post by bec on Apr 18, 2009 16:47:52 GMT -5
Maybe he's just surprised that The Devil would tell Sam this, when he himself is forbidden from saying anything at all. I don't think that scene really give any definitive clue one way or the other to who Sam's biological father is.
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Post by Kwyjibo on Apr 18, 2009 20:37:24 GMT -5
Hi everyone. I had a little "free" time today and wandered around the Internet for a while until I found this website: wordsmith.org/anagram/I played with the "Anagram Server" for a while until I ran out of search terms, and decided to try with Sam Oliver's name. The interesting (and creepy) thing is that two of the matches returned were these: Savior ElmRoams EvilTalk about the balance between good and evil, huh? Now, after looking through Wikipedia for other definitions for "Elm", and found nothing else. I just came up with the idea that maybe Sam can be paired with the normal definition of elm. An elm, as you all probably know, is a huge hardwood tree and, according to Wikipedia, it's "tolerant of a wide range of soils and pH levels but, with few exceptions, demand good drainage". If we see some similarities between this particular tree and Sam, you can see that Sam is tolerant of a wide range of situations that the Devil puts him through, but he needs a way to get that stuff out of his mind and keep on living his life as normal as possible, and that's where he needs his friends, Andi and his family, to support him. Elms were used for centuries to provide shade and shelter to people before they became ornamental, and I think Sam fits here in the way that he's always protecting the people he cares about the most AND others like the souls Red and Billy, and demons like Nina and Gladys, or even maniacs like the sheriff in "Underbelly". So, in this case, Sam's "good" side is the "Savior Elm". But Sam also has a dark side, as we all humans have, the one that the Devil is trying really hard to tempt, and even though we haven't seen much about it in the show (except when he lies or when he wanted to use his "devil powers" in "Underbelly"), it's there. If you turn "Roams Evil" around you get "Evil Roams", and that could be Sam's "evil" side. Now, I kept browsing around Wikipedia searching for the Devil's "Earth" name: Jerry Belvedere, and I found something very interesting too. It turns out "Belvedere", among other things, is the title of a very old lithograph print where, according to Wikipedia, "The woman who is about to climb the steps of the building is modeled after a figure from the right panel of Hieronymus Bosch’s 1500 triptych The Garden of Earthly Delights. This panel is individually titled Hell. A portion of Hell had earlier been recreated by Escher as a lithograph in 1935.". If you browse to the triptych's article and enlarge the picture, you can clearly see that woman which has a very "devilish" appearance. The whole article talks about the Fall and a lot of stuff that has something to do with the Reaper universe. Interesting, huh? |
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