Post by cko on Sept 16, 2008 23:18:54 GMT -5
Great summary by varcinie in...another forum, because I had trouble understanding, and this helped so much. Slight edits by me.
Jul 9, 2008 @ 11:50 am
...from what I figure: Escaped souls that were human and went to hell for bad deeds are on the level of those who sold their soul for something: humans, tempted by the Devil. The last soul we saw, the fortune teller, was the only one we saw as going to hell directly for selling her soul (to see the future) although it's implied that the cop in "The Cop" went to hell for the same thing.
Demons, as former angels, are a different category, in that they don't have a soul. I'm fairly sure that when they're in hell, they don't get tortured or anything, as a rule (being separate from God and Heaven is punishment enough) but they definitely find earth to be a much more pleasant place. Of course, that might be different for rebel demons, or ones who subverted the Devil in smaller, but much less treasonous ways; it's implied in "The Leak" (and by implied I mean, Tony comes out and says it) that the Devil is not above torturing and/or "killing" his minions.
As for people like Sam, who get their soul sold by someone else...I'm still not sure how that can be reconciled against the idea of Free Will...At most I would buy that Sam has to work for the Devil as long as he's alive, but once he's dead, it'll be based upon the overall life he lead whether or not he goes to heaven. Of course, given what a Reaper probably has to do, and the temptations he'll be confronted with, he might have just a slighter likelihood of being tempted into mortal sin...than the average person. Someone, maybe here or somewhere else, figured that God is letting the Devil get away with the whole arrangement to prove that even in the situation that Sam's in, a human being can come out with his soul relatively free of sin, a la Job.
As for redemption: basically, all the above are screwed (except maybe Sam); theoretically, once you're in Hell, there's no getting out. Catholics have got Purgatory to contend with, where enough suffering and/or the prayers of people you love could bump you up into Heaven, but there's no such provisions in Hell. Sam, I still think, doesn't actually have much to be redeemed for. He hasn't sinned more than the average human being, and he's had all the more chances for it, and he's just about the sweetest boy in creation beyond that.
The escaped souls from Hell have no chance of redemption; not only were they evil in life, they don't believe they deserved their punishment, and tried to escape it, and usually went around killing people once they did.
Demons in general probably wouldn't be seeking redemption, because it's not really possible for them. Any regrets they had would be because of the punishment they received for their actions, not because they believed their actions to be wrong. And that's really the central line in Catholicism at least: as long as an individual believes an action they undertook was wrong, and repents, not because they're worried about the punishment, but because they do believe their action was wrong, it's possible to be redeemed.
Demons who were part of Steve and Tony's rebellion weren't, from what I remember, seeking redemption so much as trying to take take down the Devil; they didn't really seem to regret the Fall beyond the fact that it got them kicked out of heaven. I'm not sure Heaven runs with a Cold War era, enemy of my enemy is my friend mentality (or at least so you'd hope), so I'm not sure how much attention they'd pay to a demon rebellion, especial one doomed to failure.
Which brings us to: demons who are Steve and potentially Tony. In the episode where he was, presumably, Saved, both were bang-up ready to kill someone (fairly) innocent and sacrifice his soul to save Sam's. Which says to me, still very demony, even if doing it to help a friend. However: Steve was quick to realize why that was not the smartest course (once Sam pointed it out, of course). To me, that implies less that Steve was still inherently evil than that Steve didn't quite get human morality. What we also see from that, though, is how he'd always been sympathetic of Sam's situation (after he, you know, laughed at him), and the same was true with Tony, even after Steve got killed. They have a real affection for Sam...It's their willingness to be connected to a human being ...shows how they were genuinely on the road to redemption...
My speculation as to what put Steve over the edge and into the Redeemed category, comes down to the very basic: Love. He loves Tony enough to probably feel incredibly guilty about being the reason he got kicked out of Heaven, and I think that's one of the main reasons he worked so hard to come up with a way to get redeemed, and he loves Tony enough to follow him to the demon meeting where they planned to kill the Devil even though he knew that it was wrong. And the fact that he wasn't coming out from an entirely selfish place to do any of those things probably helped his case a great deal, even if the end results were not good ones.
Of course, this is all me and my rather limited understanding of Christianity and some incidental research for fic writing talking; who knows what rules the Reaper writers are actually playing by, or if they have any at all beyond just what the plot necessitated.
...from what I figure: Escaped souls that were human and went to hell for bad deeds are on the level of those who sold their soul for something: humans, tempted by the Devil. The last soul we saw, the fortune teller, was the only one we saw as going to hell directly for selling her soul (to see the future) although it's implied that the cop in "The Cop" went to hell for the same thing.
Demons, as former angels, are a different category, in that they don't have a soul. I'm fairly sure that when they're in hell, they don't get tortured or anything, as a rule (being separate from God and Heaven is punishment enough) but they definitely find earth to be a much more pleasant place. Of course, that might be different for rebel demons, or ones who subverted the Devil in smaller, but much less treasonous ways; it's implied in "The Leak" (and by implied I mean, Tony comes out and says it) that the Devil is not above torturing and/or "killing" his minions.
As for people like Sam, who get their soul sold by someone else...I'm still not sure how that can be reconciled against the idea of Free Will...At most I would buy that Sam has to work for the Devil as long as he's alive, but once he's dead, it'll be based upon the overall life he lead whether or not he goes to heaven. Of course, given what a Reaper probably has to do, and the temptations he'll be confronted with, he might have just a slighter likelihood of being tempted into mortal sin...than the average person. Someone, maybe here or somewhere else, figured that God is letting the Devil get away with the whole arrangement to prove that even in the situation that Sam's in, a human being can come out with his soul relatively free of sin, a la Job.
As for redemption: basically, all the above are screwed (except maybe Sam); theoretically, once you're in Hell, there's no getting out. Catholics have got Purgatory to contend with, where enough suffering and/or the prayers of people you love could bump you up into Heaven, but there's no such provisions in Hell. Sam, I still think, doesn't actually have much to be redeemed for. He hasn't sinned more than the average human being, and he's had all the more chances for it, and he's just about the sweetest boy in creation beyond that.
The escaped souls from Hell have no chance of redemption; not only were they evil in life, they don't believe they deserved their punishment, and tried to escape it, and usually went around killing people once they did.
Demons in general probably wouldn't be seeking redemption, because it's not really possible for them. Any regrets they had would be because of the punishment they received for their actions, not because they believed their actions to be wrong. And that's really the central line in Catholicism at least: as long as an individual believes an action they undertook was wrong, and repents, not because they're worried about the punishment, but because they do believe their action was wrong, it's possible to be redeemed.
Demons who were part of Steve and Tony's rebellion weren't, from what I remember, seeking redemption so much as trying to take take down the Devil; they didn't really seem to regret the Fall beyond the fact that it got them kicked out of heaven. I'm not sure Heaven runs with a Cold War era, enemy of my enemy is my friend mentality (or at least so you'd hope), so I'm not sure how much attention they'd pay to a demon rebellion, especial one doomed to failure.
Which brings us to: demons who are Steve and potentially Tony. In the episode where he was, presumably, Saved, both were bang-up ready to kill someone (fairly) innocent and sacrifice his soul to save Sam's. Which says to me, still very demony, even if doing it to help a friend. However: Steve was quick to realize why that was not the smartest course (once Sam pointed it out, of course). To me, that implies less that Steve was still inherently evil than that Steve didn't quite get human morality. What we also see from that, though, is how he'd always been sympathetic of Sam's situation (after he, you know, laughed at him), and the same was true with Tony, even after Steve got killed. They have a real affection for Sam...It's their willingness to be connected to a human being ...shows how they were genuinely on the road to redemption...
My speculation as to what put Steve over the edge and into the Redeemed category, comes down to the very basic: Love. He loves Tony enough to probably feel incredibly guilty about being the reason he got kicked out of Heaven, and I think that's one of the main reasons he worked so hard to come up with a way to get redeemed, and he loves Tony enough to follow him to the demon meeting where they planned to kill the Devil even though he knew that it was wrong. And the fact that he wasn't coming out from an entirely selfish place to do any of those things probably helped his case a great deal, even if the end results were not good ones.
Of course, this is all me and my rather limited understanding of Christianity and some incidental research for fic writing talking; who knows what rules the Reaper writers are actually playing by, or if they have any at all beyond just what the plot necessitated.
