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Post by bec on Apr 12, 2009 5:50:47 GMT -5
I figure we'll start our own poll here. And this can be where we discuss all the evidence in support of "good" or "evil" or "something else".
I'm still on the theory that, whether he is Devil Spawn or not, his specialness lies in his uncanny ability to make The Devil do good.
The Devil, in turn, is trying to turn him evil. I believe the "Get out of Hell Free" card was part of that. Think about it: what would many people do if they think they have a free pass out of Hell? The answer is feel free to do all kinds of evil things.
Maybe Alan is the "Get out of Hell Free" card of season two. A trick to make Sam think he can get out, but is really placed there in an attempt to screw him over, as in to trick him into thinking he can go ahead and be evil and get away with it.
Sam doesn't seem to fall for this stuff in a way that really counts, like doing something seriously evil. Not because he's always a brain trust that can outwit The Devil (though on occasion he is that). Sam seems to instinctually lean towards the side of good.
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Post by cko on Apr 12, 2009 10:06:20 GMT -5
Good guy. And ooh love the Alan spec.
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kathyk
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Post by kathyk on Apr 12, 2009 11:22:11 GMT -5
I also believe Sam is good. He still loves the parents who sold his soul to the Devil. He has the ability to show compassion to people who he believes deserve it. Gladys in the Leak, Red in the Sweet Science, and the Sheriff in the Underbelly. I believe the demons saying that Sam is evil is all reverse psychology.
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Post by Kwyjibo on Apr 12, 2009 14:59:41 GMT -5
Sam is good. If he's indeed the Devil's son, he's good because he was raised by good people (he said that to Mr. Oliver) and he's surrounded by Ben, Sock, Andi, and Mr. and Mrs. Oliver. He also believes and trusts them. Remember the "Leon" episode, Sam was really mad at Sock and Andi, and the Devil tried to make Sam believe they will betray him all the time, and even though Sam had his doubts, in the end everything worked out great and he even told the Devil to look for "professional help" to talk about his issues... hehe
Now, Andi believes Sam is turning evil, but I just think it's the Devil playing with him. Sam did a good thing by preventing Nina to eat the sheriff, but as she said later, it was just evil that he wanted the sheriff to live in misery for the rest of his life. Sam obviously didn't do it with that purpose in mind, just like when he said to the Devil that the IBOH that Tony adopted would be a psychiatrist that would really mess some people up. Sam just wanted to do the right thing and save those people, even if it seemed "evil".
I can understand Andi's position, but it's just unfair that she thinks Sam is becoming diabolic.
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Post by bec on Apr 12, 2009 18:30:58 GMT -5
I don't think Andi so much thinks that Sam is diabolical the way Nina did. She's uncomfortable with how comfortable he is getting with all the crazy hell stuff. Seriously, monster lair picnic? Really, Sam? Also, he can make things explode with his mind but he doesn't have that under control. That's pretty scary. If all the Devil stuff just disappear out of his life at this point, I think at least some part of him will miss it. Of course, none of that makes him evil. But Andi never did call him evil. She just said that evil surrounds him all the time and it's changing him. That's true enough. I think the part she really has a problem with is that it's changing him in a way that makes her feel less and less important in his life.
It really does come off like she thinks he's inherently evil or going to go evil, though. I wouldn't be surprised if Sam takes it that way. Ah, classic relationship misunderstanding.
Being as aware as he is of the existence of evil and his own potential for evil might actually make him less likely to go full-on evil. Kind of like how being around bratty kids a lot can make you less likely to have children. Heehee. The hell that awaits you if you give in is always on your mind. Most people would just do something that'd land them in hell without really thinking too much about it.
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Post by Kwyjibo on Apr 16, 2009 0:21:50 GMT -5
Being as aware as he is of the existence of evil and his own potential for evil might actually make him less likely to go full-on evil. Kind of like how being around bratty kids a lot can make you less likely to have children. Heehee. The hell that awaits you if you give in is always on your mind. I know what you mean. I don't drink alcohol because I got this childhood "trauma" when my parents got divorced (my dad drank heavily almost daily and they were fighting all the time). I've always blamed alcohol and I still do sometimes, even though I know your choices don't have anything to do with anything else other than yourself. I don't smoke because it's killing my brother and I wouldn't like that to happen to me. I don't do drugs because a high-school friend almost died of an overdose. Most people would just do something that'd land them in hell without really thinking too much about it. Yeah, I mean, just look at this week's episode. Billy was just a horny guy that got hit by a truck, and he ended-up in Hell. |
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Post by bec on Apr 16, 2009 4:44:24 GMT -5
I think I take back what I said about Andi not thinking Sam is diabolical. Though She did kind of have a point about him trying to manipulate her. It's not quite "Morgan tricking her into going on a date with him" kind of manipulation, but to Andi it probably looks like a slippery slope to full Devil-level manipulation. Even though Sam's level right now is like a little puppy begging for a treat.
Trickery is one of those things that is not inherently evil. It can be used for both good or evil, but is mostly used for evil, hence Andi equating it with evilness.
Andi is being overly cautious when it comes to Sam because of everyone telling her it's his nature to be evil. How virtuous does the guy have to be to never set off her "evil alarm"? How many of us never ever do anything that can be remotely construed as evil?
Of course, since her main problem with him has been his lack of honesty with her when it comes to the important stuff... Maybe she's not really put off by the "evilness" of Sam's setup. The real issue is that it highlights the main problem in their relationship.
I wonder when Sam's going to really learn honesty with Andi goes a long way. He kind of stumbled onto it with being completely truthful to her at the end of the episode. But he has yet to realize it on a conscious level. He's probably still under the impression that it's outside forces like The Devil that's the only stuff standing in the way of him and Andi. But then, Andi herself for all her smarts is also too fixated on "evil" to realize Sam's "evilness" is not really the thing that's putting her off Sam.
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kathyk
Demon
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Post by kathyk on Apr 16, 2009 17:16:06 GMT -5
I think Andi lost all credibility to complain about Sam being maniputilative when she did the same thing to Sock and Ben earlier in the episode. I thought Sam was adorable in that scene. I think one of the clues the clues that Sam isn't evil is that when he does try to lie it never works. As I said in chat if you're not good at anything it's ok to be a lousy liar.
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Post by bec on Apr 16, 2009 19:39:14 GMT -5
Ha, yeah, Andi is certainly a manipulative one herself! I remember the time she amused herself by leaving a note on Ted's car to make him look for signs of a crash that never happened. And when she wanted Sock to fake a seizure to terrify Ted.
Have she ever manipulated Sam, though? I can't think of any instance off the top of my head. As far as I remember she's been really honest with Sam, especially when it comes to their relationship, whether they are friends or BF/GF. Maybe that's what makes the difference to her. She is more honest with Sam than she is with anyone else, and she wants him to be that honest with her in return. The whole "OMG, Sam is evil" thing is just a distraction from this real issue.
Hee, Sam would have won me over if he charmed me like that. Ah, but I have to settle for getting my own string cheese and strawberries. Oh yeah. ;D
Apparently Sam is good at reaping, if The Devil wanting Morgan to learn from him is any indication. I think that's what might make him get kind of attached to it despite his complaints - it's the only thing he has ever been told that he's really good at.
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Post by cko on Apr 16, 2009 23:37:23 GMT -5
Oooh, great insights about Andi and Sam. I -- no surprise -- agree with all of the above. Andi can be manipulative, and she's no goody-goody. Sure, she doesn't really seem to understand all of what Sam has to deal with. But her reaction seems totally human to me. She does want him to be more honest with him. If she feels distrustful, that he might be hiding stuff from her (such as a steady descent into Evil), she has some cause: he has hidden stuff from her in the past.
Sure, he had good reason--but it's reasonable for her to doubt him. Or, again, it's human.
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Post by Kwyjibo on Apr 17, 2009 23:24:56 GMT -5
I know it's human, but she always whines all the time. I can understand her to be mad if she didn't know the truth about Sam being a bounty hunter for Hell by now, but she is now REALLY aware of what Sam has to face every single day for the rest of his life, and I think she should just give Sam a break every once in a while. After all, he could get killed any time, either by a soul, a demon or the Devil himself, and I don't think she'd ever forgive herself if she didn't make amends when it was still possible. Even Sam has forgiven his parents for what they did to him, and he still loves them dearly.
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Post by bec on Apr 18, 2009 5:34:55 GMT -5
She did forgive Sam pretty easily by the end of the episode where she found out Satan is his real father (I, on the other hand, am still not ready to accept that as the truth). And when she forgave him he did tell her to run for the hills if anything seems off. And exploding a bottle with his mind is pretty damn off, especially since he apparently never told her he could do that before. She really is picking on the relatively little things right now, nothing terribly evil, really. But if she waits until something terribly evil happens, maybe all hell would be breaking loose by then, and it'd be too late to run for the hills.
She totally still has a soft spot for him, though. She's still there for him if he's truthful with her.
Anyone else wonder how Morgan was raised? Nature vs nurture is one of those eternal debates and though most cases would lean towards nurture, there are always exceptions. Some kids are just bad seeds. Some kids turn out fine despite an awful upbringing. But maybe finding out that much more about Morgan would unravel more of the mystery around what The Devil really wants with Sam. Hey, if that's the case, Sam needs to get cracking on learning more about Morgan.
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Post by Kwyjibo on Apr 18, 2009 23:37:22 GMT -5
She did forgive Sam pretty easily by the end of the episode where she found out Satan is his real father (I, on the other hand, am still not ready to accept that as the truth). And when she forgave him he did tell her to run for the hills if anything seems off. And exploding a bottle with his mind is pretty damn off, especially since he apparently never told her he could do that before. She really is picking on the relatively little things right now, nothing terribly evil, really. But if she waits until something terribly evil happens, maybe all hell would be breaking loose by then, and it'd be too late to run for the hills. I'm not saying she should wait until something terribly evil happens to get away, but if she's not comfortable around Sam, maybe she should just tell him that and stop talking to him altogether instead of playing the "let's just keep it professional" game. |
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Post by bec on Apr 20, 2009 5:49:50 GMT -5
Didn't she tell him? Okay, I do see that she is kind of being half-assed about "running for the hills" by still working with Sam. I mean, she can't fire him because there's no reasonable explanation for that, but she could quit her job and move if she is so seriously afraid of Sam's "evil". Still, this is less annoying than the time she got mad at him over him telling Josie that Greg was dating slutty twins.  I've been re-watching some of last season, and it's a weird sort of parallel now, to see what happened when Sam thought the girl he was dating was Devil spawn. Every little thing freaked him out: her other-worldly snores, the dead flowers, the broken glass. He got scared and he just cut off contact with her - didn't break up with her, didn't tell her he moved. At least Andi gave him the courtesy of a real break-up and real reason for the break-up instead of just avoiding him until he gets fed up and moves to New Mexico.  Ha, I don't know why I seem to see Andi's side in this so much more. Sam is still my favorite character on the show.  |
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Post by firestorm on May 27, 2009 16:08:57 GMT -5
She did forgive Sam pretty easily by the end of the episode where she found out Satan is his real father (I, on the other hand, am still not ready to accept that as the truth). And when she forgave him he did tell her to run for the hills if anything seems off. And exploding a bottle with his mind is pretty damn off, especially since he apparently never told her he could do that before. She really is picking on the relatively little things right now, nothing terribly evil, really. But if she waits until something terribly evil happens, maybe all hell would be breaking loose by then, and it'd be too late to run for the hills. She totally still has a soft spot for him, though. She's still there for him if he's truthful with her. Anyone else wonder how Morgan was raised? Nature vs nurture is one of those eternal debates and though most cases would lean towards nurture, there are always exceptions. Some kids are just bad seeds. Some kids turn out fine despite an awful upbringing. But maybe finding out that much more about Morgan would unravel more of the mystery around what The Devil really wants with Sam. Hey, if that's the case, Sam needs to get cracking on learning more about Morgan. I think he was rasied to value what the Devil his father values. Which is care only for yourself, and use trickery to get what you want, and act as deplorable, and abject as him while caring for no one but himself. |
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Post by firestorm on May 27, 2009 21:11:50 GMT -5
In regards to Sam I'll admit I'm biased when I say this since Sam is my favorite character on the show.
I think he's a good stand up admirable tough kind guy with a heart of gold. His weakness of caring to much has been shown in the Morgan situation but I would rather he care than be the a
swine that only cares for himself, and is overyl self centered.
It seems like he was made to be a Peter Parker type character minus the wisecracks but mostly the same kind of caring personality, average looks, and a human messiagh that is aimed in the direction of doing good.
Some Examples
He manage to forgive Nina, and accept her as a changed person. That the same demon that did try to kill him.
He gave Morgan a place to stay despite knowing that he's the Spawn of Satan.
He didn't want to send the boxer, nor that other guy to Hell.
When not getting the card to Andi he felt nothing but lousy. Jerks would come up with excueses not Sam.
When making the mistake of not reading full info of the target he was willing to do the right stand up thing, and take the blame because he knew it was his fault for the whole mess.
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Post by Blue Sunflower on May 27, 2009 23:51:49 GMT -5
Okay, firestorm. You totally score karma points with the Peter Parker mention. Plus, I like the Sam/Andi Peter/MJ parallels to (yes movie) Spider-man 2.
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kathyk
Demon
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Post by kathyk on May 28, 2009 0:30:24 GMT -5
Sam was also willing to take total responsibility for Sprong's kidnapping when the police came to question the gang. He also forgave Andi when she was beating herself up over not trusting him and he didn't take advantage of her when she was drunk. He also tries to be sympathetic to the Devil even when it doesn't make sense to him like when the Devil was talking about Halloween. I wish Steve had mentioned this rather than breaking Sam's hand.
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Post by firestorm on May 28, 2009 1:04:29 GMT -5
Sam was also willing to take total responsibility for Sprong's kidnapping when the police came to question the gang. He also forgave Andi when she was beating herself up over not trusting him and he didn't take advantage of her when she was drunk. He also tries to be sympathetic to the Devil even when it doesn't make sense to him like when the Devil was talking about Halloween. I wish Steve had mentioned this rather than breaking Sam's hand. Yes in regards to not reading full info that's what I was talking about. That teacher was a d!ck. When was Sam sympathetic towards the Devil talking about Halloween? |
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chip
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Post by chip on May 28, 2009 16:12:06 GMT -5
Yeah, I have to say Sam is a really good guy.
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kathyk
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Post by kathyk on May 28, 2009 17:19:36 GMT -5
The Halloween conversation took place during Leon. The Devil is complaining that Halloween has lost all of it's meaning. Sam tells him that it's only for one day.The Devil asks if Sam is trying to make him feel and Sam says yes.
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Post by bec on May 29, 2009 1:22:54 GMT -5
Remember this bit from the first season for another example of Sam sympathizing with the Devil:
Sam: I found a way to take down the Devil.
Ben: Really?
Sock: That's Great! So what are you crying about?
Sam: I feel bad about double-crossing him.
(Sock smacks Sam in the head)
Sam: Ow! What the hell?
Sock: He's the Devil, Sam. He's the Devil. Okay? All he has ever tried to do is screw you.
Ben: And with the Devil out of the picture, Sam, you get your soul back. Your soul!
Sock: So buck up. Are you bucked up?
Sam: I think so, yeah...
(Sock smacks Sam again)
Sam: Ow! I'm bucked up! Please, stop hitting me! Okay?
And there was a part before that of the Devil telling Sam about The Fall over ice-cream sundaes. Sam seemed to feel really bad that the Devil broke up with God way back when and now he's lonely, and according to the Devil, Sam is the only one he could talk to about it in so many years.
Ah, some of the best parts of season one.
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Post by firestorm on May 29, 2009 14:29:35 GMT -5
Remember this bit from the first season for another example of Sam sympathizing with the Devil: Sam: I found a way to take down the Devil. Ben: Really? Sock: That's Great! So what are you crying about? Sam: I feel bad about double-crossing him. (Sock smacks Sam in the head) Sam: Ow! What the hell? Sock: He's the Devil, Sam. He's the Devil. Okay? All he has ever tried to do is screw you. Ben: And with the Devil out of the picture, Sam, you get your soul back. Your soul! Sock: So buck up. Are you bucked up? Sam: I think so, yeah... (Sock smacks Sam again) Sam: Ow! I'm bucked up! Please, stop hitting me! Okay? And there was a part before that of the Devil telling Sam about The Fall over ice-cream sundaes. Sam seemed to feel really bad that the Devil broke up with God way back when and now he's lonely, and according to the Devil, Sam is the only one he could talk to about it in so many years. Ah, some of the best parts of season one. What episode was that of season 1? |
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Post by reallymzungu on May 30, 2009 11:44:55 GMT -5
Remember this bit from the first season for another example of Sam sympathizing with the Devil: Sam: I found a way to take down the Devil. Ben: Really? Sock: That's Great! So what are you crying about? Sam: I feel bad about double-crossing him. (Sock smacks Sam in the head) Sam: Ow! What the hell? Sock: He's the Devil, Sam. He's the Devil. Okay? All he has ever tried to do is screw you. Ben: And with the Devil out of the picture, Sam, you get your soul back. Your soul! Sock: So buck up. Are you bucked up? Sam: I think so, yeah... (Sock smacks Sam again) Sam: Ow! I'm bucked up! Please, stop hitting me! Okay? And there was a part before that of the Devil telling Sam about The Fall over ice-cream sundaes. Sam seemed to feel really bad that the Devil broke up with God way back when and now he's lonely, and according to the Devil, Sam is the only one he could talk to about it in so many years. Ah, some of the best parts of season one. What episode was that of season 1? Rebellion. Right before he has his date with Andi. |
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Post by firestorm on May 30, 2009 12:19:22 GMT -5
He handled himself well in the Greg episode. Through most of it the Devil was trying to manipulate Sam into killing Greg.
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