Unspoiled Speculation: The Devil You Don't Know

[Blue Sunflower]

Okay, so both the Devil and the Rebellion have tested Sam's powers. The Devil did it first by dropping that huge box on Andi in the Pilot, and the Rebellion used the washer in the season finale. One of the demons even said that if Sam used his powers to save his life, that proved he was Devil Spawn.

So my idea: what if everyone recognizes Sam is special because he's the only one of the Devil's children who has shown powers?

[kathyk]

Blue I'm still not sure Sam is the Devil's son. What if Sam inherited his powers from Mr Oliver? The Devil told Sam that he has powers but not how he got them.

[Blue Sunflower]

The powers though definitely seem to be a test. I hope they tie it in. I really do want to know the difference between Morgan and Sam.

[Blue Sunflower]

Mar 25, 2009 6:33:22 GMT -5 pacejunkie said:

Unless this scenario: Mr. Oliver is an Angel who falls in love with Mrs. Oliver a human. Somehow, the Devil learns of this relationship before God does. Knowing that since the Fall, God has looked down upon these relationships, the Olivers are forced to strike a deal with the Devil for the protection of their family -- give their child over to him and he won't rat them out. They concoct a contract and fake story about "selling" Sam's soul to the Devil and there you have it. The big secret is that the Devil is protecting them (and getting Sam from the bargain, a half angel child that he can corrupt). You could look at it and say the Devil is doing a good thing here, protecting the Oliver family from God's wrath.

Okay I really like this. Works, doesn't it?

I have been seriously thinking about this lately, and especially today after seeing the promo. And much to my surprise, inspiration struck: Switch them. Mom is the angel, Dad is the human.

Here's what I would change though:

They fall in love, and much to their shock, Linda becomes pregnant. Now, Linda (like Nina) was around when God struck down the other angels and their nephilim offspring. So when they discover Sam's impeding arrival, she naturally assumes that she, John, *and* Sam will suffer the same fate as what happened before the Fall.

In comes the Devil. The Olivers enter a deal with him to protect Sam and John. John can't die, and the Devil will protect Sam by shielding him from God's wrath. After all, if Sam is "headed" to Hell anyways, then there's really nothing God can do that's worse. The catch? The Devil can't really treat Sam as a "doomed" soul. He must respect at least *some* boundaries where Sam is concerned. But in exchange, he gets the child of an angel to rule by his side.

But the Devil, being the Devil, knows a few things. Mainly, that God won't smite Sam and actually wants him around. Not too surprisingly, he keeps that info to himself, as otherwise there is no need for Linda and John to keep the deal. He is tricky that way, hence why Mr. Oliver is still alive even though his body is dead.

Sam is also never to be told the truth, as this would screw up things from BOTH sides of the contract. The Olivers, as it negates the reason for the deal in the first place; and the Devil because if the contract is invalid, then he loses Sam. Therefore, both parties keep their big fat mouths shut, otherwise everything is ruined.

Now, I know there are probably a few flaws with this idea, but for me anyways it addresses a great many of the things that have struck me throughout the last two seasons:

1. Why it's Sam's mom who would go to Hell instead of Mr. Oliver, and also why she was ready to go to Hell in the Pilot. She knows she Fell when she fell in love with John. There really is no other place for her.

2. Why Dad always seems to be protecting Mom. Keeping bad things from her, taking the whole blame for the contract, etc. etc.

3. Why the Devil shows respect for the Olivers as Sam's parents, and never tries to turn Sam away from them, never really says bad things about them, and even upholds Sam's love for them. "They're your parents, Sammy, and you love them." The worst the Devil has ever said about them is that "in general, people who enter into contracts aren't really that good. I'm just saying, you can't get blood from a stone." Again, as the Devil, one would think he'd be more to the point with a simple "your parents suck, Sam". But he REALLY seems to measure what he says to Sam in regards to the unpleasantness of what his parents did - both in regards to his parents in general, and what it means for Sam's future life. "A lifetime of meaningless relationships isn't so bad, Sammy. Perhaps over time you'll learn to enjoy it, like I have."

4. Why the Devil hates Mr. Oliver. Perhaps it was Mr. O who insisted on the clause that Sam must be allowed certain rights, and is not fully a "doomed" soul that the Devil can force to do anything he wants - like evil actions. However, this does not preclude Sam from doing them of his own choice, so the Devil *is* allowed to tempt him. Remember, he's tricky, and will find any loophole around even his own deals.

5. Related to 4: also why the Devil allows Sam to live, even though he's "collected" his soul. Technically he can't have Sam, not until Sam dies. That's what makes him so unusual that the Devil "collected" him, but still allows him to live - think of the Cop, and remember that the devil couldn't get his soul until after the cop died. But for some reason, the Devil was allowed to "take" Sam while he was still alive - albeit not until he was 21.

6. Possibly why the Devil seems to "like" Mrs. O, since he knew her before the Fall. While I wouldn't necessarily say they had a little somethin' somethin' goin' on, it would explain why the Devil insists Sam be more upfront with her - either to appease her, or to simply turn the screws and make her feel more guilt about her own Fall, since Sam still hangs out with the Devil due to her sins.

7. Why I totally got the impression during the scene in the finale where Sam and the Devil talk about how the Devil and Mr. Oliver met, that: A) the Devil was a bit pissed about Dad's cover story, I'm guessing because it made the Devil the total bad guy;

8. The Devil's little "trust speech" he gave Sam while Dad was throwing parts of the contract into the fire. While he upholds Sam's love for his parents, he does *gently* (IMO) try and prepare Sam for the great shocks that of what has happened to him. "Technically, I'm the most trustworthy person you know, and that's just sad."

9. B) that the Devil was acting like he was Sam's kinda...guardian angel? By that I mean I really got the impression in both this scene and the end of "Rebellion" after he'd destroyed the building, that the Devil was doing the Olivers a favor by taking Sam under his wing. "I have enough nuisances in my day, Sam. See exhibit A." Really, he's the Devil. He doesn't have to put up with nuisances.

10. The ice cream scene. "There's never really been anyone to talk to before, but now I have you." Also, why Sam is special and the one to talk to, as opposed to the many many many children he already has.

11. Why the Olivers let Sam get away with everything as he grew up. I made the comment once that when Sam puts his mind to something, he seems pretty successful. Who knows what sort of attention he would have attracted if he'd been pushed to succeed? And attention on Sam is the last thing the Olivers want or need - especially if they're trying to hide him from God's wrath.

12. It maintains the integrity of the contract as we know it from what Mr. O has told us. The only real lie would be how Sam was conceived - ie, how the Devil paid the doctor to lie about how Mr. O couldn't have kids

BTW - I also feel this maintains the part of the contract that stipulates the Devil gets the first born child. Technically, Sam would be the only one. I don't count Kyle, because even if he hasn't been retconned, he's easy to exclude from the "but if Sam is half angel Kyle is too" by by saying the Olivers simply adopted him as further help to aid their hiding of Sam. A two children family doesn't make Sam stand out so much.

13. Why the Devil doesn't mind allowing Sam to believe he's Devil Spawn. It's the easiest cover story, and the simplest to keep straight.

14. Why Tony and Steve allude to the fact that there must be a Bigger Plan for Sam.

15. Why Sam is So. Freaking. Good. and has the patience of a saint. Not to mention, why he has powers.

My only real problem is why Dad tore out the pages in the contract that just addressed him, and not Linda as well. And while it is *also* possible that both Olivers are human, I can't yet fanwank why they'd sell Sam's soul to protect him and not themselves (thereby preserving the Olivers-are-the-most-selfish-people-in-the-universe aspect), hence why I'm not on board with that theory.

[pacejunkie]

Okay, well I have to claim credit for a large part of this, because I was on the right track and I'll lay claim to calling it first that Sam was a Nephilim. Mother or father, really doesn't matter because all of the reasoning still applies. What you say works though -- Linda is the Angel and John is the human.

That explains the Devil's very first threat to Sam -- You'll do it or I'll take your mother. It wasn't a threat, it was the truth. If he refuses and voids the contract, Linda returns to life among the Fallen. The Devil's the only thing keeping her out of Hell.

[pending]

Okay, well I have to claim credit for a large part of this, because I was on the right track and I'll lay claim to calling it first that Sam was a Nephilim.

I'm just not into it; something about it still seems bogus to me. Just because Nina brings up the concept very specifically with Ben doesn't draw a direct line between nephilim and Sam.

It maintains the integrity of the contract as we know it from what Mr. O has told us. The only real lie would be how Sam was conceived - ie, how the Devil paid the doctor to lie about how Mr. O couldn't have kids

Except it doesn't: the original story swapped Sam's life for dad's, as in, Mr. O's cancer disappeared. Now we're extending that to immortality, which is a pretty fair swap for an immortal soul, but ONLY if mom and (by extension) Sam are human. If we're saying mom's an angel/fallen angel/demon, then we're adding the Devil keeping her out of Hell to the contract, with no additional trade-in on the Oliver's end. Unless, y'know, Kyle. (It would really help to know if Kyle still exists or not). Basically, for this theory to work, you have to assume STACKED lies of omission. AND the fact the demons didn't catch any of this while reading Sam's contract.

[Blue Sunflower]

Mar 27, 2009 7:59:02 GMT -5 pacejunkie said:

Okay, well I have to claim credit for a large part of this, because I was on the right track and I'll lay claim to calling it first that Sam was a Nephilim.

But just to clarify the subject: Sam's not a Nephilim per se, because that would mean his mom's the human and dad's the angel, but yeah...do think it's plausible he's Angel Child.

That explains the Devil's very first threat to Sam -- You'll do it or I'll take your mother. It wasn't a threat, it was the truth. If he refuses and voids the contract, Linda returns to life among the Fallen. The Devil's the only thing keeping her out of Hell.

It also explains "Sam's hot mom" if she's the one who's the angel. ;D Also, why it took so long for her to even look at John. Shades of Ben/Nina.

ETA: And maybe why Sam can see Angel(s) when the others can't.

Mar 27, 2009 11:05:33 GMT -5 pending said:

Just because Nina brings up the concept very specifically with Ben doesn't draw a direct line between nephilim and Sam.

But it *did* bring up the concept that female angels can have children male humans. This was important for Nina to do, because it actually contradicts the Nephilim story, because those children were born of male angels and female humans.

Except it doesn't: the original story swapped Sam's life for dad's, as in, Mr. O's cancer disappeared. Now we're extending that to immortality, which is a pretty fair swap for an immortal soul, but ONLY if mom and (by extension) Sam are human. If we're saying mom's an angel/fallen angel/demon, then we're adding the Devil keeping her out of Hell to the contract, with no additional trade-in on the Oliver's end.

I'm really lost by what you're trying to say here pending, sorry.

1. The swap wasn't Sam's life for Dad's. Actually, it's not a equal equation at all, since there are three variables: Dad, Sam, *and* Mom. Remember, if the contract is negated, the Devil does NOT get Dad. He gets Mom.

Devil + Sam = Dad; but Devil - Sam = Mom

Come to think of it, Mr. O gets away scott free no matter what. Except of course, for that Zombie thing.

2. Which leads to: The Devil is already keeping Mom out of Hell, since if Sam refuses to work, he takes her.

Devil: You will do it, or I will take your mother. If you refuse to work for me, her soul becomes forfeit.

Mrs. Oliver (to Sam): I want to go instead. You tell them to come for me.

Again, the theory works since as a Fallen Angel, Linda's place is now with the others. She either lives on Earth, or goes to Hell. She'll never get back into Heaven.

3. We were never told what Mr. O was dying from, or even if he was "sick" to begin with.

Mr. Oliver: I was really, really sick, and he came to us and offered us a cure. In exchange, he would take the soul of our firstborn when he turned 21.

So, it seems two things: 1) the Devil didn't "cure" Mr. O, he just prevented him from dying; and 2) the theory works fine if what Mr. O was sick from was the same thing that killed the mothers of the Nephilim, whom God smoted.

Basically, for this theory to work, you have to assume STACKED lies of omission.

Devil (while Mr. Oliver burns papers from the contract): Don't feel so bad about keeping a secret. That's what people do. All the time. Throughout human history. It's noble to protect the ones you love, Sam. If you really care about someone, sometimes it's safer to keep them in the dark.

Mr. Oliver: You're right, Sam, you're right. There is something I haven't told you. Something I'm forbidden from telling you. I wish I could, Sam. You have no idea how much I wish I could, but if I did it would all fall apart. I'm so sorry.

Devil: I have too much respect to lie to you, so I tell you in advance that I most probably am going to lie to you.

I have always felt that when it comes to the subject of Sam's history, the Devil seems more to want to keep things from him than outright lie. I get that impression from Sam's dad too.

AND the fact the demons didn't catch any of this while reading Sam's contract.

To be fair, these are the guys who think Sam is the heir to the Devil's domain, and the harbinger of the Apocalypse; who will rise to power in his own lifetime and bring about the destruction of human civilization - for he is evil like none have known before.

But back to the theory: still works if it's Mr. Oliver who insisted on the stipulations, like I theorized. All the pages about Sam's father have been ripped out of the contract.

[pacejunkie]

Sam's not a Nephilim per se, because that would mean his mom's the human and dad's the angel, but yeah...do think it's plausible he's Angel Child.

Why? I thought "Nephilim" (at least as far as the show is using it) meant any product of a human/angel union. Probably best not to assume too much of what you don't actually hear on the show.

[Blue Sunflower]

Mar 28, 2009 14:58:17 GMT -5 pacejunkie said:

Sam's not a Nephilim per se, because that would mean his mom's the human and dad's the angel, but yeah...do think it's plausible he's Angel Child.

Why? I thought "Nephilim" (at least as far as the show is using it) meant any product of a human/angel union. Probably best not to assume too much of what you don't actually hear on the show.

A Nephilim is a product of a male Angel and female human. The Bible is pretty clear the mom is human (since it was the "beauty of the daughters of man" that tempted them in the first place - woman as temptress ie Adam/Eve), although people disagree as to what "Sons of God" meant when referring to the fathers.

And if Reaper calls Sam an actual Nephilim simply because he's the product of an angel and human, then that's GROSS incompetence on their part, since EVERY SINGLE reference to "Nephilim" says this. Apparently only the straying male Angels had children, and not the female ones (like Nina). And one would assume since the writers have added the term "nephilim" to the show, they would have at the very least wikipedia-ed it. It's not that hard to click on a link, and it's not like they can complain googling "nephilim" gave them nothing.

Nothing loses my respect for a show faster than writers who bring up a concept that obviously they had to know something about prior to writing it, but getting such a MASSIVE point to it wrong, proving they did absolutely NO homework to even bother to try and keep things straight. I mean, why used an established story if you're not going to be at least the tiny bit faithful to it? Just make up a new one so you don't end up looking like such an ignorant dumbass. Some editing with myths I can deal with, but NOT the very point that makes the story unique to begin with.

Sam may be the product of an angel/human union, but since his dad is human he is NOT a Nephilim. And it's incredibly easy for the show to sidestep this and call him something different (especially since they can claim - at least on the show - he's the only son ever of a FEMALE Angel, which would make Sam extra extra speshul), so I hope they're not stupid enough to label Sam incorrectly.

[kathyk]

Morgan fits the definition of a nephilim more than Sam does. Nephilim are supposed to be taller than normal which describes Morgan perfectly. I have another theory as to what Sam is. What if Sam is an angel in training and the Devil is responsible for training him? I can't imagine God would allow the Devil to take the soul of an unborn child so they comparmised. That would explain why the Devil talks to Sam more than the other Reapers. Sam does good things while under the Devil's thumb. Why would he allow that if Sam is going to wind up in hell one day? Steve appeared to Sam before Tony and he seemed to know something about Sam that noone else does.

[Blue Sunflower]

Mar 28, 2009 22:38:55 GMT -5 kathyk said:

Morgan fits the definition of a nephilim more than Sam does.

Yeah, Morgan fits the definition of a Nephilim perfectly. He's tall, isn't special, (presumably) isn't beloved by God (ie that is to say, God isn't happy of his existance due to his parentage), and his father is the Fallen Angel while his mother is the human. To say Sam is a Nephilim is kinda like saying you have a leprechaun and his pot of gold, but the leprechaun wears red and comes from Bulgaria. It just doesn't fit.

I have another theory as to what Sam is. What if Sam is an angel in training and the Devil is responsible for training him? I can't imagine God would allow the Devil to take the soul of an unborn child so they comparmised. That would explain why the Devil talks to Sam more than the other Reapers. Sam does good things while under the Devil's thumb.

Fun fact: originally, in A Game of Chess I *did* have a contract between God and Satan, but took it out. I know we talked a bit how sometimes Sam seems a bit like the Biblical story of Job.

[pending]

Except it doesn't: the original story swapped Sam's life for dad's, as in, Mr. O's cancer disappeared. Now we're extending that to immortality, which is a pretty fair swap for an immortal soul, but ONLY if mom and (by extension) Sam are human. If we're saying mom's an angel/fallen angel/demon, then we're adding the Devil keeping her out of Hell to the contract, with no additional trade-in on the Oliver's end.

I'm really lost by what you're trying to say here pending, sorry.

I won't pull the cheap shot by saying my *major* problem with this theory is that it's just too complicated for this show. So let me try and outline in an overly-general why I don't think it adds up:

Knowns = Sam's mother is at risk if Sam defaults the contract. Sam's father has been given eternal life. Sam has to work for the Devil.

The Olivers get (that we know of): Sam's mother stays out of Hell. Sam's father keeps living. (2)

Devil gets (that we know of): Sam at 21. (1)

Deals for souls tend to go 1-to-1, so the mom's safety shouldn't be part of the deal. It only makes sense to me if she was the co-signer for her infant son's soul, as in, if he defaults she has to go to hell.

[Blue Sunflower]

I won't pull the cheap shot by saying my *major* problem with this theory is that it's just too complicated for this show.

I don't think it's that complicated. Mom is angel, Dad is not. Based on history, God hates children of these unions. Only the Devil is powerful enough to protect Sam.

But then, I'm all about theories that make everything fit IMO, which this one does. Occam's razor. So I'm sure that in the end it will be wrong. Writers never cover up all the questions that they raise.

Mar 29, 2009 9:12:28 GMT -5 pending said:

It only makes sense to me if she was the co-signer for her infant son's soul, as in, if he defaults she has to go to hell.

I'm pretty sure that's the case. "Before you were born, we sold your soul to the Devil." Dad never says "I sold your soul." Which, IMO, is a fairly stupid thing, since like I said, it pretty much leaves Dad off the hook for everything. That is, unless she was getting something for it too - and I'm not talking about a husband who lives for eternity, particularly if she doesn't.

...and huh, found another reason to add to the "I like the theory that Sam's mom's an angel" list, she's eternal, figures she'd want Mr. O to be eternal too...

[pending]

I don't think it's that complicated. Mom is angel, Dad is not. Based on history, God hates children of these unions. Only the Devil is powerful enough to protect Sam.

ONLY because we've been talking about it for ages can you summarize it like that. Otherwise it's completely unwieldly and confusing. It would require a whole episode of expositioning; have you tried fanficking it? I think you'd see the problem if you tried that.

But then, I'm all about theories that make everything fit IMO, which this one does. Occam's razor. So I'm sure that in the end it will be wrong. Writers never cover up all the questions that they raise.

Blue, no way is "His father is human but his mother is an angel, they had a relationship that the Devil found about about and offered to protect in return for their first born child which they thought they wouldn't have because the Nephilim were all the children of MALE angels but then Sam was born and they would have to give him to the Devil so they made up a story about his dad having cancer and the Devil decided that even though he was saving Sam AND his parents from God's wrath he would follow the story and make Sam believe that he was one of the DEVIL's children instead..." the simplest answer. You're just too excited about how cool a story it is, and getting caught up in it.

[Blue Sunflower]

Mar 30, 2009 12:28:11 GMT -5 pending said:

...have you tried fanficking it? I think you'd see the problem if you tried that.

Yeah, actually I have. It's surprisingly simple: just have Tony, Gladys, and Nina see Linda. It pretty much writes itself. You'll likely never see the story though, for a great many reasons. For one, I don't have time to craft an episode - or season length - story that would create the set-up for the climax, like I did for "The Plan in Action" and "A Game of Chess".

(I do have to say though, that I can modify it quite nicely to be the sequel to AGOC, however. That story is totally set up to accept Sam as the child of an angel. Luckily, the show can also set it up quite nicely with what they've already aired, since the foundation is there as well.)

You're just too excited about how cool a story it is, and getting caught up in it.

Try again. It's a simple theory:

Mom is angel, Dad is not. Based on history, God hates children of these unions. Only the Devil is powerful enough to protect Sam.

That's the nephilim story, right there. Just because it explains everything else does not make it complicated. Also, just because you can't "call" Sam a Nephilim doesn't mean you can't use the story to adjust for your own.

Couple of corrections:

they had a relationship that the Devil found about about and offered to protect in return for their first born child

This totally contradicts pretty much everything I wrote, since it once again makes John and Linda the Selfish Parents who gave up their son in exchange for the Devil protecting them - and them only. Sam not included.

they thought they wouldn't have because the Nephilim were all the children of MALE angels

Huh? I'm sure Sam's conception is more because of a general fail on the part of birth control. It would be pretty dumb of Linda and John to assume that while male angels can have children, somehow that automatically means that female angels can't.

(It's more likely that after the Fall (post Noah and the Ark), the angels - both male and female - just got a lot more careful. Or y'know, just stopped fraternizing with humans at all - until Linda fell for John.)

they made up a story about his dad having cancer

Yet again I will point out: we have never been told what Dad was "sick" from.

Mr Oliver: I was really, really sick, and he came to us and offered us a cure. In exchange, he would take the soul of our firstborn when he turned twenty-one.

...he would follow the story and make Sam believe that he was one of the DEVIL's children instead..."

Huh? No, that's an assumption on Sam's part brought about by what Tony told him the Rebellion believes.

(My suspicion is that the Devil doesn't disillusion it because it's easier to let Sam assume this, than to go about telling him it's wrong. One way keeps Sam not only in the dark, but also compliant and accepting; the other just makes it easier for Sam to ask even more questions. We already know the Devil doesn't like it when Sam asks questions about his contract. "Forget about the contract." "Do you have a death wish?")

[kathyk]

There is one small problem with the theory of Mrs. Oliver being a demon. We don't if a female demon can get pregnant. Nina specifically said that she didn't have a child. I'm guessing that a succubus like Marlena is too hypersexual to become pregnant. Gladys has neverr mentioned whether she had a clild.
Mrs. Oliver's statement about going to hell could just be her guilt over what she did to Sam. Her behavior in Cancun makes sense she needs Sam to leave so she can dig up her husband.
Mr Oliver does have a reason to hide the truth from Sam. He doesn't want him to learn that he can't die. We saw how scared Sam was when he saw his father.

[Blue Sunflower]

Mar 30, 2009 17:37:17 GMT -5 kathyk said:

Mrs. Oliver's statement about going to hell could just be her guilt over what she did to Sam. Her behavior in Cancun makes sense she needs Sam to leave so she can dig up her husband. Mr Oliver does have a reason to hide the truth from Sam. He doesn't want him to learn that he can't die. We saw how scared Sam was when he saw his father.

All true. But like I've said, I hope the show doesn't go there since once again that just brings us back to the whole Sam's Parents Are The Most Selfish People On The Planet reason that I absolutely loathe.

Also, in mythology demons can have children. Lilith was supposedly Adam's first wife and populated the planet before Eve. I had another little theory that Sam was Lucifer and Lilith's child, and Lucifer was hiding him from her. She's pretty badass herself.

[kathyk]

I have another therory regarding Sam's origin what if he's a modern day Job and he doesn't know it? That would explain why Mr. Oliver can't tell him anything. I also believe that the demons are actually saying that Sam is good not evil. We know that Hell views things differently than on earth. Abraham Lincoln being on the ten most wanted list for example. Morgan and Nina could be using reverse psychology when talking about Sam. Also there is that great quote from the Favorite when Sam says the devil demoralizes him all the time and the Devil says that's because he can take it.

[Blue Sunflower]

Apr 9, 2009 15:58:29 GMT -5 kathyk said:

We know that Hell views things differently than on earth.

I think Nina, Morgan, et al find it hard to believe that the Devil's son is so good, so they fanwank that's he's secretly evil by twisting what he does good into making it sound like it's actually bad. Diabolical!