|
Post by Blue Sunflower on Mar 31, 2009 10:05:38 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by pacejunkie on Mar 31, 2009 20:07:01 GMT -5
A+. Seriously. Best episode yet. Poor Sam. Nature or nuture? Is he destined for evil? Is little Stevie? I loved how Sam saw himself in that baby and tried to save her. And Ben was a genius for coming up with the baptism idea to keep her out of hell. So shouldn't that mean that Sam should be baptised if he wasn't already? Would it help him? The Devil did say their situations were identical, the baby didn't sign a contract either.
This was fabulous. Apart from the Kristin scenes I loved it. Sam's dad was so like a Buffy character and the Devil even called Sam Buffy when he gave him the stake. I also loved how Sam was finally openly angry at his dad for what he did. When he told him that he had to go and send a baby to hell now I was all YYYYYEEESSSS! They then completed the story nicely when they had Sam realize that he has his parents who raised him to thank if he isn't evil, so I love how it all came round. And Tony. How awesome is Tony?
And Morgan what an ass. I'm glad Andi knows the truth now though and that in the end she's standing by him. I just loved this ep from top to bottom, so many great scenes and dialogue.
And OMG was that Felix Gaeta as the priest??? It was a blink and you'll miss it role but finally we got the BSG trifecta!
|
|
|
Post by cko on Mar 31, 2009 20:17:09 GMT -5
Oh gosh, now I'm reading comments hours before the show actually airs in my time zone. Bad! Bad! But I'm glad I did, so I can watch for Alessandro Juliani! Woo hoo! Thanks, pace!
See everyone in a few hours. It's still broad daylight here.
|
|
|
Post by Blue Sunflower on Apr 1, 2009 0:29:56 GMT -5
Wow. That was truly truly dreadful. Just so bad in so many ways. Honestly, it's almost killed my enthusiasm for the show completely. Truly horrendous episode. Such tripe. Really disappointing.
The only thing worth watching were the Andi scenes (in fact, the "fight" is the only thing that saved this from being an out and out F). Will say though that I thought the Devil was laying it on rather thick, in once again an almost "the Devil doth protest too much" kinda way. That whole storyline just felt like a complete setup by the Devil just to get to that little speech. I would say I'm with Tony, he's full of lies, except now I don't think the show's that clever. It's probably more just bad writing, or them getting lucky. Either way, it'll totally lead to nowhere.
Am not looking forward to next week.
|
|
|
Post by randomnation on Apr 1, 2009 0:46:02 GMT -5
I think this episode, much like the season in general, suffered from poor structuring and time issues. Starting with Mr. Oliver, we go from, "OMG, Dad you're alive" to "Hey, lets meet up with sock and the guys to scare 'em. and then I have to go to work, so see ya later!" Very little was given about his deal with the devil, which has been pissing me off like no other. Yes, dragging things out builds suspense, but when you only touch on the superficial side of the issue, giving absoultely no information when actually touching upon it, well, that just simply does not work. And it annoys the hell out of the viewers!! *ANNOYED*
Andi was pretty much the highlight of the episode(along with Tony). Her finding out about Sam's "parentage" was great, as were her reactions to it. Her final scene with Morgan was great. Her bodylanguage showed how afraid and uncomfortable she was with the things he was saying.
Sock has been a huge detriment to this season and tonight was no exception. Between his callousness towards killing the baby to his insipid story with Kristen, I find myself wanting to fast foward through his scenes. Even his scenes with Ben were damn near intolerable. Badness all around.
That said, I still gave it a B+ for moving the plot forward somewhat on the dad front, plus the Andi, Baby, and Tony!Return stories were strong as well.
|
|
|
Post by cko on Apr 1, 2009 0:53:57 GMT -5
Oh! I loved it!
1) There is so much happening in every episode this season! Some storyarc, some family stuff, cool interactions among the guys, Andi's character development, and silly (yes perhaps annoying) side stories. It's great how they pack in so much.
2) Just like everyone wishes for, they got the soul-reap out of the way in minutes, and had to deal with the aftermath. In a very real way, the consequence of their action.
3) Loved the shout out to Buffy. And Sam's feeble staking! Hahaha!
4) Excellent acting by Bret. I agree with pace, it was good though upsetting to see him so mad at Mr. O.
5) Gladys! Tony!
6) Angry Andi is very awesome.
7) The Devil is getting scarier and scarier. Like, he can't quite maintain his smooth exterior. Will he keep going in this direction?
8) Movie tropes!
9) I did not care for Sock this time, and I have no idea what to make of Mr. O, or rather, what the show is going to make of him. Or if they're going to make anything of him, other than zombie-comic relief. We've been having a debate about this in Chat, interesting speculation all around.
I'm happy! I think they're striking a nice balance among the different elements that make the show both silly fun and thought provoking/spec-producing.
|
|
|
Post by Blue Sunflower on Apr 1, 2009 1:49:24 GMT -5
I think this episode, much like the season in general, suffered from poor structuring and time issues. Starting with Mr. Oliver, we go from, "OMG, Dad you're alive" to "Hey, lets meet up with sock and the guys to scare 'em. and then I have to go to work, so see ya later!" Very little was given about his deal with the devil, which has been pissing me off like no other. Yes, dragging things out builds suspense, but when you only touch on the superficial side of the issue, giving absoultely no information when actually touching upon it, well, that just simply does not work. And it annoys the hell out of the viewers!! *ANNOYED* If only that were the only problem, I think I could handle it. But alas, it is not. What I hated most about that was the fact that in a better episode, that would have rawked. But in this episode? Yeah, like wearing your favorite shirt that now has a spaghetti stain on it. I *am* at the point of fast-forwarding. I've also started muting most of the scenes he's in just so that I can't hear his voice either.
|
|
|
Post by cko on Apr 1, 2009 2:20:29 GMT -5
Decent recap from AV Club--different reviewer this time. Posting here b/c it really touches on a lot of our opinions I think. Pace, at a different point he says "Gaeta" and yes it was him! Oh, his voice sounded different. I liked the glimpse.
|
|
|
Post by pacejunkie on Apr 1, 2009 6:25:12 GMT -5
Nice cap! It was AJ's voice that I first recognized actually because he had virtually no close ups (and he was a bit more grey than I remembered on BSG).
The conversation between Sam and his dad actually hinted at a lot that goes on behind the scenes. Seems Mom has kicked Dad out over this whole contract mess and it's really all Dad's fault, whatever the truth is. So that explains Mom's initial anger and cold attitude over his death. She really does put all the blame on him. And Sam seemed to know all this so I assume that he has since met with and had conversations with his mom. I'd like to see one of those scenes eventually, but as long as I know it happened, I feel better.
|
|
|
Post by Blue Sunflower on Apr 1, 2009 7:21:44 GMT -5
Seems Mom has kicked Dad out over this whole contract mess and it's really all Dad's fault, whatever the truth is. Which is insanely stupid and a massive plothole, considering she helped sell her son's soul herself. That's some non-pedestal she's standing on there. But whatever. Not to mention, she presumably had the Devil's kid. And judging by her attitude to Sam's "Was Dad my real father?" I'm betting she full on knows the answer. And no, I'm not going that the Devil impersonated Mr. O. Seriously, if the show goes that way, I may actually be done.
|
|
|
Post by beatrixkiddoe on Apr 1, 2009 8:27:06 GMT -5
Super awesome.
I loved this episode, it was definitely my favourite of the season thus far. I totally cracked up at Sam using Mr. O to scare Sock and Ben in the car and I don't think it's possible for the scenes with Tony and the baby to be any cuter.
|
|
|
Post by bec on Apr 1, 2009 10:17:20 GMT -5
Anytime TV shows start throwing in babies, it tends to be a sign of writers running out of ideas. I can maybe give it a pass for actually having a plot purpose as a parallel to Sam's situation, but tying it to Tony seems like a bad idea to me. I like Tony, I'd like to see him get cool plot-lines when he's on the show, and now... is he going to be saddled with lame baby plots anytime he's on?
What was up with the Vampire!Mom calling the kid an "it"? I understand it's meant to save the baby reveal for later, but it doesn't make any sense that a mom would refer to her own offspring as an "it". It's how I refer to babies because who can tell what gender they are, they all look like Winston Churchill, and I couldn't care less. But people who gives a shit tend to insist on proper gender terms like "him" or "her".
It's looking more and more like we're supposed to just accept that Sam is the Devil's son instead of going off with all our alternate theories. I would have had an easier time with the acceptance if it didn't seem like they went from guessing to certain all of a sudden and I still don't know how they got so certain. If we're going to get a "No, Sam is not REALLY the Devil's son" twist later, it's going to seem like it came out of left field since no hints at all are being laid out in that direction. The only exception is the entire lack of unshakable proof that Sam is the Devil's son, but that feels more like a dropped plot-point than a deliberate maneuver. Anyone who only started watching this season would think it is an established fact that Sam is the Devil's son and never suspect anything else.
Kristin is still pointless, but that's nothing new.
Oh well, I did laugh at Sam using his dad to prank the guys. I was expecting to cringe at dad's fingers getting cut off when Sock slammed the fridge door on him, but thankfully they did not go that route. I hate seeing people lose body parts (Xander's eye from Buffy, I'm looking at you).
Hey, he still hadn't told Andi about dear (mostly) dead dad, yet, has he? Hmm... please don't let this be another "Sam keeps a secret, Andi gets mad" routine. Yawn.
I do appreciate that this show doesn't go as dark and angsty as many other shows. But that doesn't totally excuse sloppy writing. It's possible to be comedic without throwing in stupid pointless crap and cutting out important stuff.
|
|
|
Post by loandbehold on Apr 1, 2009 15:13:09 GMT -5
Put me in the disappointed camp on this one. As with last week, it had some good points; some bad points. [/David Byrne]
Loved Andi and Tony's return. Sam's dad in the car was hysterical. Dad's "the man who came to dinner routine" was played out from it's first moments. I don't see liking having him in the garage.
Must. get. rid. of. Not!Josie and the Ken doll. One is a useless and sexist joke. The other is worse - useless and incredibly boring. Bring back Nina. Nina and Ben are so cute together.
Edited b/c there's a difference b/w Sam and Dad, isn't there?
|
|
dagzar
Fallen Angel
The Ultimate Lurker
Posts: 25
|
Post by dagzar on Apr 1, 2009 20:52:40 GMT -5
I'm not sure what to think of the episode. I'm not happy with the way it's going, but I'm not exactly put out either. I suppose I just don't really care.
Though, I think the next episode will be better. Now with Andi knowing Sam’s secret and Tony back in the picture, things should go a bit smoother. And maybe, the demon assassins and / or that soul from the first and second episode will come back and give us something nice and plot related.
Oh, and I agree with loandbehold. More Nina.
|
|
|
Post by Blue Sunflower on Apr 3, 2009 5:25:16 GMT -5
Total word to your entire post, bec. I cannot tell you how deeply disappointed I was by all the plotholes - and not just regular sized ones, but ones you can drive the Enterprise (tm StarTrek) through - that got opened up by this episode. I made the comment in chat that while I wasn't expecting BSG or S1-most of S3 Lost level writing to the mytharc, I at least thought we'd get Buffy level. Instead, we ended up with something that's even worse than Charmed. Or for that matter, Aqua Teen Hunger Force. What's worse is that this is even the second episode that has brought up an interesting twist that could have kept me theorizing ad nauseum about Sam's history. But both the nephilim and the IBOH went flat out nowhere, much like all the other ideas. And this doesn't even address all the problems with the non-mytharc stories. The whole Dad-as-Sam's-friend was...oh, just bad. And since the IBOH went nowhere, I'm beginning to get supremely annoyed at whatever the show considers a soul to be, not to mention what it can do. Really, what exactly is the difference between being dead and alive when it seems you can come back, have children, have corporal and nice looking bodies, and return back into your former lifestyle using your own name and no one blinks an eye that you're around. There's only so much suspension of disbelief I can take. I also think you answered your own question here: It was for plot purposes only. It didn't have to make sense. The whole episode was just shoddy. Hey, he still hadn't told Andi about dear (mostly) dead dad, yet, has he? Hmm... please don't let this be another "Sam keeps a secret, Andi gets mad" routine. Yawn. I really hope that when Andi dumps his ass, this is why and that they don't make it some wuss out. I'm sorry, but I was so angry at Sam's incredibly non-existent character growth - not to mention complete hypocrisy between his attitudes with Dad, Devil, Tony, and nowhere-to-be-found Mom - I could barely watch any of his scenes - except of course, where Andi handed his ass to him on a platter, which he so richly deserved - just like he did when she first gave him the exact same speech TWICE in the season premiere. It was also nice to see the Devil do it too, but I'm so just in shock that it's yet another scene that seems to *hint* at a deeper plan by the Devil, yet the show made so clearly during the rest of the episode that there really isn't one. And really, I'm getting a bit pissed off that we're not seeing any Sam angst at all. If ever there called for it, I would think a moment after that lava scene would do it. I am beyond tired of Sam being the perpetual Teflon of feelings. And his anger at his dad was so hypocritical compared to everything, it was beyond ridiculous. Dad gets bitched at for being afraid to die, but Mom gets off for her role in also signing him away (not to mention bearing the Son of Lucifer); Tony gets smiles for killing Dad; and the Devil just gets an eyeroll for what he did to Dad, and for being the one who's actually responsible for the whole mess in the first place. No, no, apparently it's ALL Dad's fault Sam's life is a mess. Whatever, Sam. I am trying so hard to be like this too, dagzar, but it is just not working. I don't even really have the desire to go looking for Reaper stuff. Which I think is very, very, very sad. I'm hoping if I take a two week break, maybe it will get better, since the next episode certainly won't do it. I had been looking forward to "The Good Soil" before this, as it's more Sam/Morgan. I mean really, I don't think I can take it if this show has now turned me into a Hater. And I'm very worried it has.
|
|
|
Post by onyourmark on Apr 3, 2009 8:45:21 GMT -5
This being my experience from the Harry Potter fandom: when you are so angry at the main character you've started wishing ill upon him, it is time for a nap. Maybe some soothing music? Scented candles? You have been working too hard Blue and I think you might have burned yourself out, because this is an undue amount of frustration for one episode of not-terrific-writing. In a comedy. About slackers. Who work. For Satan.
Anyway, I thought the writing for this ep wasn't that great either-- mostly the tired old "haha! those men, they don't know what to do with a baby. they have no uteruses to magically guide them." plotline-- but it was still funny and I enjoyed watching it.
Plus Tony. How could I not love any episode where Tony returns?
|
|
|
Post by bec on Apr 3, 2009 9:34:18 GMT -5
Buffy level might be a bit too much to expect. Buffy was incredibly good at its best. And incredibly bad at its worst. So far this show had neither hit those levels of high nor those levels of low.
I know I have a lot of criticisms, but I did enjoy the episode despite of all that. So I'm at the "a tad disappointed" mark and not like "deeply disappointed". Hee! to the mention of Charmed. When there was a baby it instantly reminded me of the episode of Charmed where the sisters took in a baby.
I don't need to see people coo at an infant, change it, burp it, or whatever on a TV show, thanks. If I want to see something that mundane I can just tune back to real life. Or maybe the literally millions of baby videos people put up on youtube. Yeah, thanks, but no thanks. Though I did get a kick out of the boys being so eager to give the kid away "You have to seize it! Seize it right out of our hands!" Heeheehee. And I did love that Gladys was ready to cram the kid into the chute to hell and appraised it as "probably just a regular baby" while looking utterly unimpressed as per usual. Gladys rocks. "Ask your girlfriend for help. She dates you. She must know a lot about babies." Bwahahaha!
And another saving grace is that Sam at least has the good sense to realize Andi is busy with actual work and is not automatically a babysitter just because she has a uterus. I was kind of cringing in anticipation of Kristin being put on babysitting duty, but they went an even more cringe-worthy route with the whole breast-nuzzling, Sock being turned-on thing. Ugh.
|
|
|
Post by pacejunkie on Apr 3, 2009 14:30:55 GMT -5
Well I watched it again and I still loved it. The baby, Tony, Dead!Dad, I enjoyed every scene. One thing that struck me was the Devil's change in tactic towards Mr. Oliver. Last season when Sam told the Devil what his dad told him about the deal, the Devil refused to bad mouth him. He said, "Look Sam, they're your parents and you love them," and he made some quick remark about integrity and changed the subject. This time, he's telling Sam to dump this guy's ass to the curb and look what he did to him and Sam should hate him. So why the turnaround? Does he just think that Sam is in a position emotionally to be ready to hear that and that maybe before the truth was really out there he wasn't? I just thought it was interesting that the Devil is using this opportunity to drive a wedge between Sam and Mr. Oliver.
|
|
|
Post by cko on Apr 3, 2009 17:34:29 GMT -5
I didn't mind the baby, I thought it was funny that they used a familiar trope and turned it around a bit. It was an appropriate device to convey the "consequence of reaping/innocence/original sin" concepts--like bec said, a plot purpose. Plus that baby is a good actor.
And the Hellmouth! Was that a Hellmouth? Cool!
|
|
|
Post by pending on Apr 3, 2009 18:14:46 GMT -5
I'm in between camps; I don't think the episode was terrible, I don't think it was great.
Couched deep in this totally valid point is one of the dark aspects of fandom Blue, and I think it's that you're too in love with what the show could be, or what you think it should be, and it's killing your enjoyment of what it is. I've been out of the BSG loop too long to know what's going on with the fans, but from the agonized shrieking I hear over the finale I think they have a more serious case of the same syndrome: show dismorphic disorder. The only cure is to step away, and get a little air.
I did feel that the episode was clumsy with some shoddy writing, but the baby was cute, Tony with the baby was even cuter, and there were other moments I really enjoyed. The jump from Andi thinking Morgan was charming last ep to hating his guts in time to have a B plot with him was sloppy, but I still enjoyed it. I like that Morgan hasn't been sidelined, and I liked him acting out in such a petty way; trying to ruin his brother's (let's just go with it) relationship probably because he's never been able to hold a steady girlfriend.
|
|
|
Post by pending on Apr 3, 2009 18:44:29 GMT -5
Reading over my own words, I realized it didn't sound quite as supportive as I meant: it can really, really suck when a show disappoints you (arguably, I think the episode's defensible). One of my all-time favorite anime series, from when I got into it a decade ago came back for a new season, and proceeded to be mind-blowingly mediocre. I still watched it, I still enjoyed it, and I still wanted more, but I enjoyed the time I had with the show. The most important thing is to keep an open mind. (If you want the actual cure for how I got over my disappointment = whiskey and Siouxsie Sioux videos on YouTube.)
|
|
|
Post by cko on Apr 3, 2009 18:51:29 GMT -5
I know what you mean, but for some reason my mind is now stuck with a particular visual that just keeps going around and around and around. This talk about hopes v. reality as a fan reminds me of an interchange from (yes) the old TWoP thread where onyourmark was telling stinger the same thing RE: Greg: Schmeg. I've said this before, but looking back at the discussion there makes me nostalgic to the point of a little sad. Yes, you all, at some point you reach the age when you're more likely to sigh over what was rather than be mad over what isn't. Either that or this is the comedown from my bout of Spring Fever earlier today. ETA: My solution = whiskey and Siouxsie Sioux videos on YouTube. Thanks, pending!
|
|
kathyk
Demon
Bounty Hunter Extraordinaire
Posts: 165
|
Post by kathyk on Apr 3, 2009 20:22:56 GMT -5
I thought this episode was average not as good as The Sweet Science but not as bad as the Mongol episode. Sam can't tell Andi the truth about who his father is because noone will give him a straight answer. Sam did ask Mr Oliver if the Devil was his real father and Mr Oliver refused to tell him. The Devil hates it when Sam shows sympathy for the dammed. He got mad when Sam advocated for Red and Mr. Oliver. I do agree with Blue that the show needs to bring back Mrs, Oliver even if they have to recast the role.
|
|
|
Post by bec on Apr 4, 2009 1:00:54 GMT -5
Yeah, come to think of it, Andi confronting Sam about being the Devil's son would have been the perfect opportunity for him to be all "I didn't tell you because I'm not even sure! No one would give me a straight answer when I ask!" But I guess he's not supposed to be not sure anymore. That's too bad, really.
But I love how Tony has a good laugh over how he tried to kill Sam that one time because he thought Sam being Devil spawn meant he was evil, and Andi just raises her eyebrows ever so slightly.
The baby had a plot purpose for this episode. What give me pause now is that the writers paired it with a recurring character, which might mean it is now also a recurring character. And there's only so much of the "hahaha! Look! Stupid young guys with a baby, isn't that hilarious?" stuff I can take before I lose patience. I was already losing patience at the point when they were trying to sing it to sleep. Thankfully that was near the end of the "Oh noes, people without uteri or gayness don't know what to do with babies, isn't that just so precious" variety hour for this episode. I don't have faith that the writers can come up with anything else to do with a baby character, so I really hope it never comes back. They can just drop it like they dropped Kyle, I'll be happy to overlook it in this instance.
Well, they can maybe bring it back when it is a delightfully evil little girl... if the show lasts that long. Or maybe they can rapid-age it somehow (how about a stint in hell where, say, ten years there is like one day of regular world time?).
Hey, anyway, another thing that doesn't make sense in this episode is that apparently the protocol for Intentional Birth Out of Hell is "Have fun raising it" to whoever is unlucky enough to end up with the evil spawn... er, I mean, lucky enough to receive the little bundle of joy. And then the devil shows up and demand that Sam send it to hell? It's either just one of those plot-holes or something extra weird is going on. I can't see Gladys bending protocol and allowing souls to stay out of hell again after what happened last time she did.
I'm still enjoying the Morgan character. It's great how much of a douchebag he really is while hiding it behind being extra complimentary when he wants to get on someone's good side. He's such a two-faced snake, just like this truly evil person I know in real life. What a great way to write an evil character. I love to hate him. (Unlike the aforementioned real-life person, who just gets all hate-hate from me all of the time.)
|
|
|
Post by Blue Sunflower on Apr 4, 2009 23:25:30 GMT -5
This has more to do with the fact the show took a 180 and complete nosedive in this episode. I've lived with shows not being "what it could be, or what I think it should be" before (see my story A Game of Chess), and I have certainly been able to turn a blind eye to previous problems before **coughcoughkyleforonlyonecoughcough**. Hell, I could have even overlooked how a guy who lives off knowing his bodily functions, and a guy who nurtures even rabbits, can't tell when a baby's diaper needs to be changed.
I have not burned myself out. It's actually harder for me not to look up Reaper stuff than it is to do it. The writers have burned us instead. They really needed to write the Sam/Mr. Oliver scene differently, or Andrew should have acted it entirely differently. He really should have delivered the line "Is that what he said? Then it must be the truth" the same way Ray delivered it in Cancun. At the very least, Mr. O should know who Sam's father is. The implications he doesn't go back as far as "and in exchange he gets our firstborn" to Mr. O taking out all the pages of the contract that mention Sam's father to whatever secret is still out there that he "can't tell or else everything will be ruined" to Mr. Oliver being the "one responsible for the whole mess" to Sam's impossible idea that getting out of his contract will get the Devil out of his life completely to why the hell the Devil even needs to use a contract to get Sam to begin with, no matter what age Sam was.
Rebellion had problems, but I still enjoyed it. But in that case, the problems were encased entirely within the episode, unlike the implications from the problems in I Want My Baby Back.
It really has nothing to do with keeping an open mind. It's getting clear cut proof that the show in the end is going to be nothing more than a massive plothole. I've given the show a pass before, but that was because there was nothing in canon that would establish otherwise to the problems. Can't say that anymore after this episode. I mean, for crying out loud, they can still bring Kyle back, they haven't officially retconned him yet. It's a sad day in hell when theories and fanfic are BETTER than the show, and not equal to or less than. It's even sadder when the show had all the pieces in place to actually go somewhere that made sense, but for some reason chose the crappiest route instead.
And don't tell me it's "just a show, enjoy it for what it is." It does not work that way for me.
Andi is quite right to dump him. Sam lies to her, and worse, tells Sock and Ben things before her - and deliberately keeps her out of the loop. She's barely fourth on his list of Important Things. She deserves better, and Sam needs to grow up. He's supposed to be in a relationship. Andi is his girlfriend, not the tertiary character he occasionally speaks to whenever they have the same shift.
Honestly, he should have taken her out, sat her down, and told her. Then if Andi *still* flipped out, I'd be Sam is better off without her.
And here's my snark: Although I'm pretty sure the writers are going to take the wussy way out and she's gonna dump him because she "sees some evil in him and runs for the hills" even though anyone with half a brain knows that Sam is not evil. Which gets to make *her* look like the moron, and Sam the Pretty Rose.
I will now go with "plothole" for $1000, Alex. And I'd really like to know how a soul can give birth in the first place. If she died pregnant, then the baby should have died too and its soul would be in limbo or heaven. But if she got pregnant after she died? WTH?
The writers should have made the child born before the mother died, and she escaped to get it back. The Devil could still want it as a bad seed. The nature/nurture argument still works, especially since the Devil insisted "nature always wins".
The better line was Sam's comeback, but I'm not going back to find the exact quote. It was something like "we don't have time for your snarky snarkness."
Yeah, I think I'm more pissed that the show has overshadowed everything with their massive screw-up, so it's tough to enjoy this stuff too, since it can now be nitpicked to eternity and back as well. Morgan/Sam was all kinds of awesome.
|
|
|
Post by cko on Apr 5, 2009 12:33:22 GMT -5
Nothing like a show that brings out the debate in us. Isn't that why we love fandom? Love/hate I guess. Anyway I rewatched after listening to Reapercast, which always tells me how much I missed the first time around, and I'm still happy. I didn't think there was much of the "guys can't handle babies" or at least not too much for me, and I didn't think once of uteruses. The church scene was pretty heavy, actually.
And, Ben is now my favorite character. Awesome acting by Rick to make a one-time fall-guy into a deep, funny, charming, realistic sidekick. With ethics. Love him.
|
|
|
Post by bec on Apr 5, 2009 13:40:37 GMT -5
Ah, I went back and checked, and Sam's retort to Gladys was: "She happens to have an important job she's busy with right now unlike you and your stupid... stupidness." I gotta say, the best part was Glady's "Ooh, what great snark... NOT!" look after that. Sam was at about the level of calling her a stupidhead, which was kinda weak, but hilariously in character for Sam.
I didn't have as much of a problem with the "souls having offspring after escaping from hell" thing. Remember Jack King. Dude made like, hundreds of offspring. So it's been established on this show that escaped souls can procreate. As to whether that in itself makes any sense... Oh well, I went with it then, I can go with it again this time. It only seems like more of a leap because being an actual mother is more involved than being a sperm donor, and because she came back from hell with the characteristics of a vampire, and a lot of mythology about vampires (outside of this show) mentioned vampires are supposed to be "sterile". But on Reaper she's still more "escaped soul from hell" and not so much "vampire", so I can buy that some of the same "escaped soul" characteristics that applied to Jack King also applies to Vampira.
The writers just better not get in the habit of adding soul babies all over the place. That'd be annoying.
Of course, the Devil didn't bother to take all those kids made from Jack King's sperm back to hell for being "bad seeds"... OMG, they never mentioned who the father of Vampira's child was. Maybe the father is the Devil himself! Dun dun DUN! Heh, I should probably just stop thinking about this so much.
|
|
|
Post by bec on Apr 5, 2009 14:41:16 GMT -5
Yeah, cko, as much as I complain, I agree they managed not to have too much of the "what do we do with a baby" schtick. I mean, for me, that kind of stuff starts to wear thin right away, but it was just bordering on annoying for me, and not outright "OMG, this sucks ass but I can't look away" like that episode of Charmed I mentioned. Managing to only "barely annoy me" with a prominently featured baby on a TV show is quite something. Helps that they balance it out with the guys being really eager to have someone take the kid off their hands (instead of getting attached *gag*), and Gladys offering to stuff it down a chute is played for laughs (instead of presented as OMG sooo scary and evil), they actually come close to skewering the kid with a stake (on any other show that takes itself more seriously, the main characters would jump to working on saving the precious baby instead of ever plotting to send it to hell) and Andi only did a teensy bit of obligatory cooing and then it was right back to talking about her and Sam (seriously, if she cooed as much as Kristin did, with the high-pitched squealing and all, it'd feel so out of character for kick-ass Andi). And BONUS KUDOS for having Sam know better than to hand off babysitting duties to Andi. That's almost enough to make me take back my uteri comment.
In short, I appreciate that overall the baby was more of a problem than "OMG the most precious adorable thing evah!" (there's a tiny little bit of that saccharine-ness, but not so much that I feel like someone is cramming Splenda down my throat *glares at Charmed*)
|
|
|
Post by pacejunkie on Apr 5, 2009 14:57:28 GMT -5
Interesting comparison to Jack, and you're right, why were his kids allowed to roam free? Mother/father difference or where the kids were conceived? I'm guessing the difference is Jack's kids were conceived by living uncondemned humans on Earth, and Vampira (judging by Gladys' description of an IBOH) had conceived her baby in hell with another condemned soul and just escaped so the child could be born in the Earthly realm ("Better schools." Heh). So the baby essentially has two strikes against her.
As for the vampire mythology, the Devil specifically pointed out that she only acted like a vampire, and that vampires didn't exist, I suppose to avoid any mythology problems there.
So the Devil was lying when he implied that Sam was just like the baby. Sam is born of a living human and a "dead" angel/demon/Devil, not two dead souls like Stevie. Of course that raises another question as to whether two dead people can procreate and create a living human. The Devil pointed out way back in the pilot that these souls were already dead, so is the baby similarly "dead" and condemned or a living uncondemned human (or perhaps a potentially condemned soul like Sam)?
|
|
|
Post by awesomereaperfan on May 3, 2009 20:34:14 GMT -5
Why does the summary list this episode as #206? as a result the whole season's summaries list each episodes as one ahead? Is this just a mistake or has one episode been rescheduled/skipped over?
|
|